Transcripts > The Tim Ferriss Show > #280: The Erotic Playbook of a Top-Earning Sex Worker (NSFW)
Why hello, ladies and germs! This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job each and every episode to de-construct world-class performers from every possible domain, whether we are talking about entertainment, military, athletics, business, or in this case, something a little bit different, to tease out the habits, maybe routines, maybe techniques - definitely - that you can use and apply in your own life.
Now the subject matter and interviewee in this episode I suppose could be introduced - at least, should be introduced, I think - with a quote. And that quote is: “Those who are easily shocked should be shocked more often.” That is by Mae West. If you find yourself getting a little offended or find yourself recoiling or leaning forward with great interest and enthusiasm, notice that. Notice all of those things; this is an unusual interview and it came about because I was walking through Dallas Airport, I want to say, at one point to catch a connecting flight.
I got a text from a friend, and the text said: “Tim!! Hope all’s well with you. I have an interesting guest you might consider for the show: Alice Little, top earning courtesan for the Bunny Ranch. Long backstory on how I know her, but seven-figure earner, super smart, who’d definitely be out of left field. Let me know if I can make the intro.”
For those of you who don’t know, the Bunny Ranchis a legal brothel in Nevada. I received this text from Robb Wolf - yes, that’s right - robbwolf.com, you can check him out. He is the philosopher-king of the Paleo world, and I will let Robb explain [laughs] why he knows Alice some other time. I get this text, so of course I say: “Yes, yes, yes! Is she a good conversation? Zero to ten, how good at storytelling is she? One thing led to another and then - boom! I was connected with Alice.
Alice Little - @TheAliceLittle - is considered the number one top-earning legal sex worker in the United States. She is a 4ft 8 - hence Alice Little - legal sex worker at Nevada’s world-famous Moonlite Bunny Ranch. And there are a number of associated brothels within that family, but we won’t get into that. This episode is, in case you haven’t picked it up already, definitely not suitable for work. People, not suitable for work: NSFW. Can’t imagine you’d be listening to this on speakers at work, but just in case you have no common sense, there you go. In this wide-ranging conversation, we cover quite a lot, including technical sex tips, how Alice puts people at ease, including adult virgins, and apologize - apologize.. my apologies for the crunching in the background: that is my dog Molly chomping on a bully stick, otherwise known as Bull Pizzle, otherwise known as bull penis, so maybe very appropriate for this episode.
Okay, back on track; focus, Ferriss. We talk about BDSM; if you don’t know what that is, we’ll define it. Powerplay, we talk about threesome do’s and don’ts. Plus what she calls [laughs] the Big KO Finishing Move. Misconceptions about sex workers and the realities. Why what she calls “The Girlfriend Experience - GFE” is her most popular offering. How she works with couples who want to explore new boundaries, new worlds, and much more. Alice is also a vocal advocate for legal sex workers and the founder of the political movement Hookers for Healthcare - lotta backstory there. She’s been featured on ABC’s Nightline and is no stranger to the conversation of what is called “Sex Surrogacy” that we get into a little bit and seeks to shift America’s perceptions of sex workers and sex work. There you have it! You can check her up at thealicelittle.com and elsewhere. I hope you enjoyed this very unusual - but very, very practical - conversation as much as I did. Without further ado, here is Alice Little.
Alice, welcome to the show!
Hey, how are you? Thanks so much for having me!
I am fantastic, and I’m well-caffeinated. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation all day and have wanted to have this conversation or some form of it for many years, because.. I wanna say ten years ago, after reading The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho, which has sold 100 million plus copies around the world. Oddly enough, he ended up appearing in my last book, but that’s a digression.
I was in an airport and I picked up another book of his without really knowing anything about it, and it is called_Eleven Minutes,_ which is very, very different from his other books. It is a novel about the experiences of a young Brazilian sex worker and her journey to self-realization through sexual experience. It takes her around the world to Geneva and all these different locations, and describes her lessons and experiences and hardship but also peak emotional experiences and so on. I remember thinking to myself after finishing that: “What a unique life.” At some point in my life, it’d be amazing to sit down and have a conversation with someone in that world, and here we are! Thank you for making the time.
Absolutely! I’m really excited, looking forward to this; we’re gonna have some fun!
And on the book point, I was looking through these bullets and I have so many questions for you. One of the bullets was “Antiquarian rare book collector” and I thought we would just start there for no good reason other than I’m curious: how did you get into that, first of all? Do you have any particular favorites that come to mind?
Yes. Um, rare book collecting almost came naturally to me: my family has had a lot of heirlooms and antiques and a number of those include older familiar Bibles. That just kind of sparked my interest from a young age and as I’ve grown, my interests have diversified and I started looking into other types of publications that existed within that time period. I’ve always been attracted to things like leather-bound books and the history of a book that is aged and has had ownership, that there might be, perhaps pencil marks in there, or notes from the person who first owned it kind of putting their thumbprint on that piece of history. I kind of think of those books as not just a piece of historical literature but also a piece of historical evidence oftentimes as to how it relates to a particular person.
Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely, that’s one of my favorite things about used books is in some cases looking at the highlights and discovering what someone else thought was important in those pages. You mentioned your family: you were born in Dublin, is that correct?
Yes, just outside of Dublin proper.
Alright, which might partially, at least, explain the natural red hair for which you’re known, among other things. Moved to the U.S. around age 5. How did you ultimately then find your way to sex work? Do you remember your first exposure or how that came to be? I would love to know the story, which I don’t know. I had both myself and someone else trying to do background research and part of what made me even more excited to have the conversation is there’s not a whole lot - I mean, there’s a little bit - but there’s not much. So I feel like [laughs] this is very fresh, at least for me. How did you find your way to sex work? How did that happen?
Growing up, I had always been a very naturally curious child: I would be the kid that asked one too many questions, that had a little bit too much to say, that always wanted to know more. Whatever it was that I wasn’t supposed to know at that age, that’s what I was most interested in! For example, I remember being a fourth grader and trying to check out The Diary of Anne Frank and being told it was grossly inappropriate and going so far as to have my parents take it to the school board and petition for me to be allowed to read this book.
As far as being in, I guess, connection to my body and my sexuality, as I progressed through my years it came very naturally to me to be sexually inquisitive. I asked questions such as: “Why as the model monogamy? Why are limiting ourselves to man and wife, what about other options? What other paradigms are there? What more is there to discover and learn from this?” That led me to discovering the Cathouse series, which featured the Moonlite Bunny Ranch, on HBO. That aired for a number of years; it was incredibly impactful and it really kind of was the first sexual renaissance, at least in modern society, that we have had. I’ve watched that show growing up and I just admired this free sexual attitude that they had and the energy that they had.
Were there any particular episodes or scenes or anything like that that, uh, stuck in your mind, in particular? And where were you when you were watching this, where were you living?
Oh, goodness! I was actually living on Long Island, New York, at the time. It would be way, way late at night, way past my bedtime.
Nothing against Long Island! I grew in Long Island. Which part of Long Island?
Oh my gosh, are you serious? I grew up in Nassau County.
Oh, yeah. I was a suffolk boy myself, but I spent a lot of time in Nassau, as well. Alright, strong island reunion. Unexpected, I like it!
[Laughs] So you’re watching this series. Are there any particular moments or scenes or characters that really stuck out to you?
Air force Amy was definitely one of the most prominently featured women on the show and she captured me. Everything from the way that she carried herself to the language she’d use when talking about her job and the relationships that she had with clients. She was willing to show things that many people oftentimes didn’t consider, such as couples being at the ranch or BDSM being an option. She’s even had an episode specifically showing pony play before, which is when somebody is hooked up to a cart and actually pulls somebody around, acting as if they are a human pony.
[Laughing] I was gonna ask; wasn’t sure what variety of pony play we were talking about!
It’s pretty fantastic stuff, I just really loved that free ability to explore and innovate in this sexual way, and it really spoke to me. I was at the time a BDSM educator - and still am to this day - I travel around the country, I present at all sorts of different events and panels and I just started to take the next step!
Could you, sorry to interrupt, but could you define for people - and I think we’ll probably stop a few times in this conversation to do this - BDSM? Having lived in the Bay Area, I’ve since moved, but in the Bay Area for 17 years and having taken tours of the armory and so on, I am familiar with BDSM, or what it is, at least…
Yay! I’ve taught classes there before!
Oh, yeah, it’s a wild spot. For those people wondering, you could look it up: the Armory. They buy fifty-gallon drums of lubrication at a time, which apparently you can get on Amazon Prime, which I can’t imagine is a net gain for Amazon. I’m going off the rails.. What is BDSM?
There are multiple different ways to define BDSM but simply put, it’s an acronym that can stand for several different things. Anything from Bondage, Discipline, Sadism, Masochism, to - sometimes, it’s been used to describe, say: Bondage, Discipline, Dominance, and Submission. So the exact wordage, the exact verbiage changes depending on the circles; there’s not 100% agreement as to which letter has which particular meaning. Generally speaking, it’s divided up into BD - for Bondage and Discipline, DS - for Dominance and Submission, and SM - for Sadism and Masochism.
What, of all of those, I think many of those are somewhat self-evident or people can envision what they mean. What is “Discipline?” What does that mean?
Discipline in the context of BDSM is the exchange of a physical or emotional control over someone where you are either, say, spanking them or perhaps going so far as to verbally chastise them, if that’s the agreed-upon dynamic. It’s set up to kind of re-create that structure often found within the military, where there’s this chain of command and this understanding of who reports to who. Within the BDSM culture, sometimes that discipline will enter into a submissive - dominant relationship where that’s used in combination with their relationship.
Mm-hmm. It makes me think of - I don’t think this quote applies everywhere, but - I wanna say Mae West, but Mae West is kind of like the female version of Mark Twain. You can kind of attribute any quote to her so I may be getting the attribution wrong but the quote was..
I don’t think she would mind.
[Laughs] I don’t think she’d mind either. The quote was something along the lines of: “Everything in life is about sex, except for sex: sex is about power.” At least in the BDSM world, I imagine that would have some application. The BDSM then sounds like, based on what you said, your fascination with that or even teaching that pre-dated your work as a sex worker, is that right?
Yes, I celebrated my 18th birthday by going into a dungeon space in New York City for the first time and finally getting to interact this community that I’d been waiting to for a number of years. My interest in BDSM started very organically in high school. Things like tying up my first girlfriend with rope and kind of enjoying that, it led me to discover the BDSM community. From there, I was just chomping at the bit to get that education and that knowledge.
And when did the, uh, or how, really did the sex work enter the picture?
There’s a very fine line between BDSM and sex work in the sense that both are very sexually-charged activities. It was very comfortable and easy, almost, for me to make the jump from one to the other. It was a very conscious decision where I sat down one day and said to myself: “Where do I see myself going within the next year? Where do I see myself going the year after that? What about five years?” When I really sat and thought about it, I saw myself entering a profession that allowed me to connect with people on an intimate level moreso than what society generally allows for.
In the past, I’ve worked as a massage therapist where I got to develop that hands-on relationship with the clientele but it kind of just fell short of that deep personal intimacy that I was looking forward to. I’ve always felt that life is about enrichment, both for our own betterment as well as the betterment of those around us. For me, sex work ended up being the perfect channel to do that.
Now you’ve done a number of other things: you mentioned massage therapist. Please correct me if I’m wrong: of course, everyone should be cautious about believing everything they read on the internet.
Emergency medical technician, jockey at racetracks.. those are other things that you tried, correct?
Oh, yes! I have tried a little bit of everything under the sun trying to find something that just felt right. I wanted to find a job where not only did I feel comfortable with what I was doing but I also felt a more meaningful calling than it just being a job. It actually had a deeper purpose to it that kind of relates back to the book you mentioned: Eleven Minutes, where she goes through this sexual journey and kind of finds herself. It very is true for many of us sex workers, that message of self-discovery and sexual freedom and that ability to explore those parts of ourselves and share them with - well, [what we formally know as] strangers is incredible.
What was your first - or what you would consider your first - gig, I suppose? I’m gonna stumble a little bit because I’m not sure which labels or words to use, so if I offend, please forgive. What was your first - I guess, client engagement - as a sex worker? Do you remember your first experience and could you describe it for us? One of the first?
I remember it very very crystal clear. The Bunny Ranch maintains a set of forums online which allows for a greater depth of communication and intimacy before we even meet face-to-face. It allows the ladies like myself to post photos, different interests, kind of share about us on that humanistic level rather than just that appearance level. I had posted about a particular interest I had in one of these specialty rooms at the ranch. I had simply said: “Hey, [there’s] something I’m really looking forward to trying; I’d love somebody to come out and spend that time with me.” Within the week I had an e-mail, and it was my first appointment, a gentleman called..
[Interrupting] What was - I’m sorry - what was the room? [Laughs] Maybe you’ll get to it, but right now I’m so curious.
Oh! It is this setup where it’s an indoor jacuzzi with an attached suite next to it. This way, you can come and go between the jacuzzi and the bed as comfortably as you so please.
Mm-hmm, got it. Okay, please continue, sorry. You received an e-mail from a client.
Yeah! They’re like: “I love this idea you have, I’m interested, let’s do it.” Of course, I have all the nerves and anxiety that comes with the first appointment in a new industry. Everything ended up going as smooth as clockwork, it was just so much simpler than my mind made it out to be. I tend to over-think and over-analyze things, and so I naturally always prepare for the worst in any scenario. What happens if I make a mistake, what if we don’t connect, what if something happens and the jacuzzi breaks? I tried always preparing for such contingencies and at the end of the day, the reality was the intimacy was just very natural and comfortable and to this day that client is still one of my regulars that I get to see and connect with fairly often.
Alright, so you mentioned you were nervous. Highly analytical by nature, and then it went like clockwork. What is the format of one of those first encounters. What I mean by that is I’ve read, uh, that - I actually don’t know where this term comes in, but - I’ve read about negotiations. It seems like you get paired with a big sister and then there’s a sit-down with the client. Is there a negotiation, did I misread that? What role does the big sister play, or the more experienced woman?
Well to start with, I kind of like to describe what it’s like when you come into the ranch ‘cause that kind of helps set the stage for what an experience there is like.
Either somebody would set an appointment with a particular lady or they would come in and request a lineup. If you choose to request a lineup, all of the available ladies will come out to the parlor. We stand in a line, introduce ourselves, and after we introduce ourselves, you’re free to walk up to the lady of your choice, take her by the hand, and go for a tour of the property. The Bunny Ranch is an incredibly historic property; it’s been there since the 1950’s; it’s beautiful and has been many times remodeled, re-vamped, and renovated so it really is a top-of-the-line, gorgeous facility. We like to kind of showcase that, in addition to some of the different specialty rooms, suites, and offerings that we happen to have at the ranch.
After the tour, the guest and the lady then go back to that lady’s room where they will then set and have a negotiation. If the lady is new, for the first couple of times, they’ll introduce the big sister, or a mentor, who is an older, more experienced lady that’s been there for a little bit to kind of help you through those first couple times until you start to feel comfortable and more confident. During the negotiation, that’s where we kind of have a conversation.
I hate to use the word “negotiation” because it feels very business; I like to think of it more like having a conversation with a friend. It’s something that happens very organically; it gives me the opportunity to get to know who you are on that personal level and also kind of let you know a little bit about myself when it comes to intimacy and attraction, it’s so much more than just that skin level: it certainly goes deeper. So I really like to take that time during that first few moments to really get to know who somebody is as a person beyond: they’re at a brothel, they’re interested in services. I like to take a little bit longer than most in that particular regard.
During the negotiation, we’ll also talk about what particular activities we’re interested in, what sorts of fantasies they may have, what sort of special requests that they would have. From there, we kind of formulate what our time together is going to look and feel like: how long would we like to spend together? Would we like to stay in my room, or are we interested in one of the specialty suites I mentioned earlier? Is there a particular activity that they want to try, or is there a second lady they would like to involve in the encounter? That’s kind of where we get to shape and figure out what we’re going to do and after that point, you would then go to the office. They handle all the financial transactions very discreetly; the ladies don’t actually have any interaction with the client’s personal information for their protection. All of that is handled by the cashier. We then get a set of sheets, couple of towels, perhaps a bottle of champagne for fun, and head back to my room or the suite and we’re off on an adventure!
[Laughing] So I wanna dig into, uh, a few follow-up questions. So you sit down and I think in my mind, uh, I’m envisioning.. I’ve only seen the first installment of the film 50 Shades of Gray where they’re having this conversation about what are the “Go / No-go” rules, I suppose. Among my friends who do BDSM, of course, is very - on some level - seems very familiar. What are the, uh, what are some of the questions that you like to ask, or the most important questions that you ask?
I tend to work with a very wide variety of people, and more often than not I work with people that I’ve had the opportunity to communicate with via e-mail. That’s given me the opportunity kind of to get to know them and their personality a little bit, so I’m able to better adjust the types of questions I ask. For example, if I have a couple that has never had a third person involved in any sort of sexual encounter, the very first thing I’m going to ask is: “What are you comfortable with? What are you not comfortable with?” and allow them to start setting their own particular boundaries. What the couple, you certainly don’t wanna violate any sort of pre-existing communication agreement that they have made. So I like to pay honor, almost, to their relationship and kind of allow them to dictate, in a way, to me, where they see me fitting into the puzzle of their pre-existing connection, versus..
[Interrupting] What - sorry. Not to interrupt, but I’ll probably interrupt a lot.
Let’s say a couple comes to you and, as you noted, perhaps they’ve never had this experience. So you ask them what they are comfortable with, and they’re not sure, and they ask you, what would you suggest as guidelines, or: “How should we do this, we’ve never done this before; we’re not sure what would make us comfortable or uncomfortable.” What types of guidelines or suggestions might you offer them?
The very first thing that I like to start with is a very simple and really fun getting to know you exercise. Of course, taken to a little bit more of an adult level. I find that we often…
This is an adult show, so we can get into the details; it’s okay.
[Enthusiastically] Oh fantastic! Here we go! Things are gonna get real interesting!
Yeah. For those parents in the car with their kids right now, I’d recommend earmuffs or having a pause break for a birds and the bees conversation.And we’re back! So please continue, yeah. So people are looking for suggestions from you as a couple; what do you do? And you mentioned an exercise.
Yes. The very first thing I like to start with is a foreplay exercise. Women take significantly longer to be aroused than men: that’s a biological fact, and oftentimes in sexual encounters, there’s not enough of that warm-up period, especially during a “get to know you” that time needs to be even more so explored and even more so embraced. And so I like to simply start by the two of us, either myself and the wife or myself and the husband, undressing one of the partners very, very slowly and sensually while they have their eyes closed.
This does a couple of different things: First, when you close your eyes during any sort of intimate encounter, it’s going to heighten all of your other senses. Your sense of smell becomes significantly sharper where you’re able to smell a hint of perfume or that whiff of cologne. When you close your eyes, you feel every single touch of the fingertip, the pressure of the nails sliding over your back or over your partner’s nipples. It’s incredibly arousing and just that one simple thing adds a certain depth and really lets you sink into what’s happening and appreciate every single movement.
I kind of like to think of sex as a dance, in a way: it’s working with a partner or partners, you’re coordinating your movements and your energy, your breathing oftentimes will become subconsciously synchronized. You just naturally fall into this flow where you’re exploring, kissing, touching, and just embracing and letting things really naturally go with the flow, and letting your mind kind of take over instinctually, rather than pre-programming and deciding: “First, I shall remove the top. Then I shall slowly remove this bra but with my teeth.” That removes all the sexual spontaneity out of it - there has to be that certain organic element to it, otherwise you’re looking at a porn, not a true encounter.
Okay. So you get, you slowly undress one of the partners. Then what happens?
Then we go to each of the other two in turn, either myself or the husband first, whichever things just happen to come naturally, same process repeated over again. At this point, I’m going to start encouraging them to not just explore each other’s bodies, but also explore their body or also explore my body, as well. So I might take his hand and kiss his fingertips and literally holding his hand, trace it down my neck, and place it onto my breast. This way, he feels comfortable and that touch barrier’s been breached. Once it’s happened, I have found that naturally, people settle in a little bit more and they start to give themselves permission to enjoy that encounter in really: “Oh! This is really happening, now. Oh, I can do these things, I do have the power of this sexual expression and freedom here.”
Hmm. So in that circumstance, when you look over your experiences with couples, [sighs] what.. This, this is gonna - might sound funny, but - what do the smarter guys do, and what do the not-so-smart guys do? The reason I ask is that I recall a conversation I had with a dear friend of mine who for a period of time - he’s happily [Laughs] married with kids now, and has voluntarily chosen monogamy, but - back in his, uh, sort of peak athletic years, he was a master of threesomes. I mean, really just seemed to have near-magical powers.
He said to me at one point, he observed that if you want to have threesomes with, say, a girlfriend or a wife, he said: “Rule number one is you do not penetrate the other woman on the first date. If you do that, you can have many, many, many threesomes. But if you penetrate the other woman (i.e. not your girlfriend) on that first encounter, you could completely shut her down - meaning your girlfriend - and you’ve just ruined your opportunity to have an ongoing, enjoyable experiences as a couple.”
So I don’t know if that’s true - sounds like it’s plausible - but what are certain things that smart guys do, versus not-so-smart guys, or experienced guys in that type of circumstance?
So the smart guys communicate: they’re very clear with their significant other as to what their desire is; what kind of fantasies they want to see, and what kind of an experience they want to have. They also have to be willing to wait until their partner is comfortable and ready to have that experience. Trying to manipulate your partner into a sexual encounter is the absolute worst thing that you could do. That is typically the first thing that I see couples do when they’re doing it the wrong way. If the guy is doing it for very selfish reasons where, you know, he doesn’t really care if his wife’s into it; this is all about him. Those guys, they’re not being respectful of the woman’s right over her own body, let alone their agreed-upon relationship.I would say that the very, very first thing is communication, followed by consent.
And, uh, how do you help to break the ice if, let’s say, you’ve removed the clothing, you’ve the traced someone’s hand, maybe both - let’s just assume for the time being - man and a woman. So both of their hands on your bodies. Uh, if, if they’re still not sure what to do, what is a good next move, if you’re directing things?
If I’m kind of playing ringleader, as it was, and we’re still reaching this point where we’re a little bit tentative and that intimacy hasn’t quite clicked into place, the next thing we’ll often go ahead is: move onto what is called an edible body massage. This is where you use body-safe products that also are either flavored and scented - for example, um, a honey massage lotion - and then we’ll go ahead and lay one or both of the partners down and slowly use that and warm them up that way. Again, keeping with that touch, keeping with that sensory input, and really allowing everyone to participate. This isn’t a scenario where one partner is on the other side of the bed, this is a scenario where both myself and the wife may be massaging the husband, or they’ll both be massaging me. Either which way, it just allows for that continuation and natural flow of energy and chemistry.
Hmm. What are other things that you do in those circumstances to make the woman comfortable? Are there any other particular tricks of the trade or phrases or questions or guidelines that you use?
This is gonna be an interesting one, but since this is an adult show..
Yeah, oh yeah.
One of the things that I like to do to help make the woman relax a little bit more is I like to make her have an orgasm. This can either be through digital stimulation with my fingers or perhaps with a sex toy. Perhaps with the assistance of her partner playing with her nipples or kissing her. Allowing the woman to go ahead and have that first orgasm in that threesome, it makes her feel secure that she’s not going to be less than a partner.
Many women have this concern about this comparison between themselves and other women; I think it’s one of the reasons why I have so many couples is because being a 4-foot, 8 inch petite redhead, there’s not a lot of women who can look at themselves and feel compared to me. The body type, the height, it’s such a complete night and day difference that they feel comfortable sharing their significant other with me because they don’t see me as a threat to their relationship.
And then we’ll go ahead and give that woman the first orgasm, it’s solidifying her place within that sexual dynamic, saying: “Yes, your feelings, your sexual experience, is absolutely important and it’s going to be a part of this.” Women are lucky, we get to cum more than once and so why not start things off with a bang?
[Laughing] Why not, indeed? Uh, what are some of your best practices for helping a woman to orgasm? Do you have any favorite sex toys? Do you have any - many women have difficulty orgasming, or may be coming into an experience perhaps not with your clients, I don’t know. In-orgasmic, right? They haven’t experienced that before. What are some of the approaches or, sort of, technical tips or toys that you use that you’ve found to be particularly helpful?
Sure thing! I happen to work with both couples as well as single women. Many times over, this particular problem. Believe it or not, it’s a societally endemic problem, where the majority of women have trouble reaching climax, either single by themselves or with a partner. So I think talking about something like this is really important. Personally, I always love to suggest the simplest toy, which is a wall plug-in Hitachi Magic Wand.
Such a great device. Great device!
It is the best. As far as sex safety goes between partners, always make sure you’re putting a condom over the top of the Hitachi, because we wanna play safe with our toys. So when we’re going ahead and using the Hitachi, that is absolutely fantastic for direct clitoral stimulation. You can go ahead and increase or decrease the intensity by pushing down harder or softer, and if that still isn’t quite doing it, the second thing I like to do is a simple one or two-finger insertion. Nothing too much more than that, especially on the first orgasm, ‘cause it’s kind of a warm-up.
We’re like diesel engines: it takes us a moment to get warmed up, but once we’re there, we’re gonna stay purring for a while.
Mm-hmm. And so, you’re doing the one or two-finger insertion along with the Hitachi magic wand?
Yep, it’s just same slow, repetitive motion, in and out. The whole thing that a lot of guys make the mistake on when trying to help their partner climax is variation. In my experience, most women actually prefer a more rhythmic approach to it: a simple one-two, one-two, in-out, in-out. It tends to work a lot better than one-two, one-two, [slowly] one-two, [quickly] in-out, in-out.
It’s very difficult for a woman to achieve climax that way, and that’s just a biological difference between men and women. I’ve noticed that men tend to like variation when pleasuring themselves, or receiving a handjob from a woman. They like the difference in strokes, length, and pressure, whereas: women, we’re pretty consistent about what we like. We like to do what we do, and stick with that! It’s okay if you’re doing the same thing over and over again. If it’s working, trust me, you’ll know.
So a couple, a couple of notes on the Hitachi Magic Wand for people. You can certainly find it at just about any sex shop; you can certainly buy it online: Amazon, et cetera. And it can serve double duty for those of you who might have read Tools of Titans. [Laughing] For relaxing, uh, hypertonic or spasmed muscles. For instance, in the forearms, in the forearm flexors and so on, if you have really tight forearms, uh, gymnasts, in fact: former national team men’s coach Sommer recommended the Hitachi Magic Wand. [Laughs] But not for sex, for relieving muscle tightness. So if you need that excuse, uh, guys you can grab one of those and then your girlfriend will steal it from you. That’s one. Do you use the high or the low setting, most often?
I’m kind of a low setting girl: I kind of just prefer that lower intensity level. I kind of will save that higher mode for more of the very end of the session. If we really wanna ramp things up, then.. Well, I guess the best way to describe it is that the Hitachi has two settings: Strong and “Crawling up the walls” Strong.
[Laughs] And, uh, how long is - let’s just say, in the case of the couple - like a minimum or an ideal length of session? How much time do you have?
It completely varies from couple to couple. Generally speaking, for somebody’s first encounter, I like to go ahead and include something called an “out date.”
What an out date is, is that it actually allows us to leave the brothel and then travel anywhere we would like in Nevada. Perhaps we all go out for lunch, first. This way, we get to have some conversation, get to have a little bit of that mental stimulating foreplay, not just the physical stimulating foreplay. Then after lunch, we’ll head back to the ranch and from there, go ahead and kind of enjoy our sexual festivities. Couples that are on, say, a travelling time schedule where they only have a couple of hours, it’s absolutely okay to spend just two hours with some date, or even just a single hour with someone.
Generally speaking for couples, I recommend going ahead and investing in a slightly more elaborate experience, especially for their first time. That attitude and that energy is going to make a huge difference in regards to what you experience here at the ranch with me. That little bit of extra connection time of just going and having a simple meal with someone, it gives all the stress a moment to leave your body. It allows all of your anxiety to kind of go away and dissipate. By the time we make t back to the bedroom, you’ve already relaxed, the butterflies have calmed down, and you feel a little bit more comfortable with where things are going next.
What are some of the most requested activities? You mentioned activities a few times; looking at the pie chart of requests that you’ve received; what are the most often-requested activities?
I would say that there are two different things that would kind of fall into that pie chart. It would probably be more accurate to go ahead and label it as both “experiences” and “specific activity requests.” Sometimes those things go hand-in-hand or they go separately; probably my most-requested experience is something called “The Girlfriend Experience.”
It’s where we take things to that next level of intimacy and I - oftentimes, it’s argued it could even border on sexual surrogacy, where you’re taking things that next step further. That’s where we’re going out to eat together, we may choose to go to a concert together. We’re gonna keep in touch in communication between our time together via text or e-mail or perhaps phone calls. It allows for that depth and that building of relationship that really transcends beyond just a single stand-alone session.
Absolutely the majority of my couples and the majority of my clients in general tend to fall into that more girlfriend experience category. The second most-requested experience is kink or BDSM and fetish activities. This may be in the example of a couple that is interested in bondage and discipline, where I might teach the husband the safe way to use rope to tie up his wife and then explore how to use floggers and sex toys to give her that sexual release. Say with a single male, he may be interested in having me dominate him instead: he wants to explore his submissive side and his submissive energy. I’d say that would probably be the second most-requested category I have.
The third would probably be two-girl encounters: having a threesome is on almost every single guy’s bucket list, and there’s no better place in the world than the Bunny Ranch to get to have that encounter. We’re professionals; we’ll take care of you the right way!
[Laughing] Alright. So those sound like the experiences. If we were getting into specifics, are there any-
Then more so the specific sex acts themselves?
Yeah. Within any of those buckets, I’m just so curious to know, uh, because I remember having a conversation. Living in San Francisco for a long time, getting to know people who are very sex-positive and support sex workers and one of them said, for instance, that they found oral sex, blow jobs to be very, very commonly requested. A lot of men are not given that by their primary partner; maybe their primary partner just doesn’t enjoy that for whatever reason. I don’t know if that’s accurate, since I’m not a sex worker, myself.
What are some of the most frequently-requested activities or acts?
I think, I think this one may be more specific to me than necessarily the experience of other ladies, but very frequently, I have men coming to me that want to have sex while standing up. Because I’m so petite - I only weigh 85 pounds, you can literally pick me up and have sex while standing in a variety of different positions. I also happen to be extremely flexible, so I get a lot of requests for Kama Sutra positions, or perhaps sexually-creative positions, where the man is standing and the woman is in doggy position at the end of the bed. Perhaps we’re having sex using a chair. In the case of someone with disabilities, perhaps we’re having sex using their wheel chair as sex furniture; all of those things are often requested.
Oral sex, also: huge, huge request. It feels great; a lot of guys enjoy that sensation, because like you had mentioned earlier, it truly is a rarity and for them, it’s a treat. As far as specific sex position goes, women, you have got to start riding your men: they really like it when a girl is on top and is willing to take control. Oftentimes in modern society, we still see this paradigm of man on top, woman below, the standard missionary position being the one and only position that men are getting to experience with any sort of frequency. A variety of positions are often requested from cowgirl to reverse cowgirl, doggy style, and everything in between.
You mentioned - I’m sure we’ll come back to a lot of different details - you mentioned, in passing, “sex surrogacy.” I was hoping you could just take a minute and define what that is.
Oh, absolutely! Sex surrogacy is kind of an interesting thing, because the definition tends to be personal. With that being said, a universal way of looking at sex surrogacy in the most simplest of forms is that: rather than entering a traditional relationship with, say, the average woman you’d meet at a bar, you are instead choosing to enter into a longer-based relationship - in this case, with a sex worker - and kind of replacing the traditional girlfriend or wife with courtesan-esque court companion. You’re filling that role with something other than what is a societal norm. It’s very interesting because when you think about it, didn’t the king of England have multiple ladies-in-waiting? Didn’t he have multiple women that he was having affairs with and having sex with? That’s really true for a lot of history, when you look back.
Having this secondary person or oftentimes, in the case of sex surrogacy, this primary person being the person who is taking care of your sexual needs and desires, it certainly deviates from what we would expect out of society.
And, uh, now does this combine, then, in some cases, or is it separate from - this is, there’s something else that I wrote down. Consensual non-monogamy, which it seems like you’re an advocate for, or at least know quite a bit about. Are there particular - this is a blended question - do you have guidelines for people who are interested in exploring consensual non-monogamy?
Absolutely. Consensual non-monogamy, first off, is defined as: our partner knowingly allowing you to go ahead and have sex with another person, in this particular case, with a sex worker. This has a couple of unique advantages over any other kind of consensual non-monogamy. First off, you know that we’re professional; you know that I’m not seeking to steal your husband and try to marry him; that could be the furthest thing from the case.
And second, oftentimes there is a medical reason as to why people are interested in consensual non-monogamy. For example, the wife may have ovarian cancer and is unable to have sex, because of the simple medical reason that it’s not feasible at that time. She may go ahead and acknowledge that her sexual needs and wants and desires, she’s not able to take care of those for her husband, at that time.
I’m a very firm believer that sex is a need, not just a want. It’s been shown time and time again, it has a positive psychological effect on someone, and it absolutely has positive effects in the overall experience of life. By going ahead and allowing her significant other to see this sex worker, she is acknowledging not just his sexual needs, but also doing so in the most ethical way possible. You’re paying simply for a service which I am simply providing; I am taking care of a need that, at that particular time, you’re not able to fulfill. The wife is able to have a say over that, because it’s consensual; she’s able to dictate: “Okay, these are the specific sex acts that I am comfortable with.” Or instead, say: “I am comfortable with everything but these particular acts.” And then, she’s allowed to then contribute her input.
As far as guidelines go, for someone that’s interested in something like that, we have to go back to the same number one I said earlier: Communication and the willingness to have that communication, followed by number two: consent. If you can get those two bullet points checked off, then you’re well on your way to going ahead and entering this type of dynamic.
Mm-hmm. Uh, you, you mentioned - uh, before I completely derailed the train of thought - one example of a type of client, and you mentioned couples. My understanding is that you also have worked with a fair number of adult virgins, is that accurate?
Can you explain - just walk us through what that experience is like. I mean, how do you take someone, presumably male, although that may not always be the case, and how do you make them comfortable? How do you walk them through that experience?
The very, very first thing - and I keep coming back to the same number one here - it seems to be very prevalent throughout my work is: the very first thing is that communication aspect of getting to know them as a human before getting to know them as a sexual human. I want to find out what someone’s hobbies and interests are. I’d love to see a photo of someone’s dog, or hear about a funny story from when they grew up. That allows us to connect, first on that friend level, where we have that openness. At that point, I’m able to ask questions such as: “What kind of sexual experiences have you had? What kind of sexual experiences have you _not _ had?”
Many times, adult virgins have never been on a date; they’ve never had a first kiss, they’ve oftentimes never proceeded past first or second base. In their heads, they’re really not just an adult virgin, but they’re a virgin to the whole dating experience. In America, unfortunately, society favors women when it comes to sex and relationships. Women are sought after by men, but men aren’t oftentimes as sought-after by women.
Therefore, we have a large sector of the population which is male and also a virgin in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and up. They’ve simply either never had the time to have the encounter, the opportunity has never presented itself, they’ve never specifically sought out something like that, or perhaps they are anxious. Perhaps they haven’t had the ability to do so because they feel limited by a disability. For example, a large number of the adult virgins I work with fall on the autism spectrum. For me, it’s understanding who someone is as a person, then understanding who they wanna be as a sexual person, and kind of developing our own customized date experience that allows them to experience the things it is that they are missing.
So this is fascinating. With someone who, say, has autism - there’s of course an entire spectrum, depending on the severity of, uh, symptoms or the way it’s been diagnosed and so on - that would seem to also challenge, maybe in some ways, the tool that you keep referring to, which is communication and asking the right questions, and so on. So what are some of the things you’ve learned after you’ve, say, heard a story or two, looked at a photo of a dog, had a little bit of time to get to know them as a person? Now it’s time to progress to, maybe phase two, where you’re starting to get to not only know them, but explore them as a physical human being, a sexual human being. What are some of the things that you do to facilitate that?
I like to communicate on several different levels: communication isn’t just verbal, a lot of our communication as humans comes from that more subtle - ether facial features, body posturing, how we lean in or lean away from something. When I’m working with somebody physically hands-on, I’m also trying to read some of their body language, and look for the social cues that someone is calming down and their respiratory rate is relaxed. Or instead, they’re leaning into an embrace rather than hesitant and pulling away and perhaps more nervous. For me, I never proceed to the next step or the next level of intimacy until we have reached that comfort barrier, and then we’re both ready to progress forward.
A number of my clients are war vets, and they left for the military and completely lost the ability to have that normal first relationship. Now that they’re getting to explore it for the first time, they’re dealing with a number of different things, some of which have PTSD, some of which have hearing loss from explosives. So I have to be willing to communicate on whatever language basis, either verbally or non-verbally, that they’re communicating in. I have to have a certain level of flexibility when working with adult virgins, because you really wanna cater that experience and really create something that’s gonna be special, memorable, and personable. This is a unique experience for them; there will never be another first, other than this one thing. So, the way I look at it, I want to make that first time be everything they ever dreamed, hoped, and desired.
I’d like to get into some specifics related to that. So I remember when I lost my virginity, and I suppose I was fortunate to be pretty young at the time, but I was a nervous wreck! I think that many guys are, so let’s say that you’re sitting down with someone who’s - very understandably - nervous on some or many different levels. What are some of the specific things that you’ve done or questions you’ve asked or things that you’ve said to make them less nervous, to make them more comfortable? I know it depends on the person, but what are some specific examples that you can give of anything that you’ve done across clients to help them to melt into the moment, so that they can be less preoccupied and nervous?
Absolutely. I think that happens on multiple different levels. The first thing I do is I like to create a certain ambiance in my room. When we walk in, I like to create a visual change by going ahead and lowering the lights. I put on a little bit of relaxing background music; this way, the rest of the world and the rest of the brothel and the rest of everything has the opportunity to kind of melt away for a moment. It’s creating a space specifically for this encounter and kind of setting the stage. That helps with that first step of visual relaxation.
Do you have any favorite go-to background music? Do you have any particular background music that you like?
I love Enya - huge fan of Enya. It’s soft, it’s melodic, it’s relaxing. It’s very easy to take that to a romantic place, and it’s not so dominating, lyrically, that it would inhibit conversation and communication. It just flows very calmly and naturally in the background. Another one I really enjoy is Lindsay Stirling’s violin places: those can be a lot of fun if you want something a little bit more upbeat and energetic. That’s a lot of fun to listen to. The genre of chillstep is a third music choice I tend to go to; tends to have a little bit more of a beat and a rhythm to it, and kinda helps set more of that sexual tempo.
Love it, alright. Very helpful, okay. Please continue. So you’ve set the, the room tone, so to speak: what then?
We’ll go ahead and assume that the person I’m working with is a neurotypical male virgin who has never even so much as kissed a woman, before. This is something I see almost every single week. The very first thing that we need to do is establish a physical connection. This starts oftentimes with hand-holding, and interlacing of the fingers, playing with the fingertips, and encouraging them to reciprocate that same motion: touching my fingertips, stroking my hand. From there, that progresses to perhaps gentle kisses across the neck and shoulder region: something that is a little bit less intimate than lips on lips contact for that first time, kind of allowing someone to experience what that sensation is like.
Just stop for a moment and imagine that you’ve never kissed a woman before; you have no idea what that sensation is going to be like on your lips. Is there a taste to the skin? How does the smell of her perfulme or the shampoo she use affect your experience? By slowing things down and really, really exploring that first few steps of intimacy, it allows you to explore the depth of it and really appreciate that act for what it is: foreplay.
Going ahead and just having very, very non-traditional foreplay such as gentle shoulder rubbing; using my fingers to run them through someone’s hair or tracing my fingertip over the outer edge of their ear. Maybe running my fingers along the lower edge of their jaw; those little acts of touching connection communicates non-verbally that: one, it’s okay to touch me too, and two, this is gonna be a relaxing experience. I’m not going to try to undress someone, have them on the bed on their back, and try to hop on top of them and ride them ‘till they orgasm. That’s not good. That would be the exact opposite of the kind of experience I wanna create for my male virgins. I want them to really appreciate that sexual connection.
Another thing that’s worth mentioning here, too; this is a very interesting thing. More frequently than not, male virgins are not able to reach orgasm during their first sexual experience. Because of nerves and anxiety, it often does affect performance, and that is a very normal biological occurrence. It’s not something to be ashamed of, or feel as if that ruins your experience. I also like to set up the intention that the goal is to explore each other sexually. If we manage to achieve orgasm during that process, all the better.
But I don’t like to place an emphasis on: “We’re going until you orgasm.” Sex is so much more than the big finish. Sex is a journey; it’s an adventure. It’s not just sex: penis in vagina. It’s so much more than that. So I’d say over all for my virgins: to make them feel comfortable is I let them know that it’s not just sex. It’s the touches, it’s the kisses. It’s their first kiss when I’m looking them directly in the eye and I’m reaching my hand behind them and lowering their head towards mine, and giving them that self-confidence to reach out, lean forward, and kiss me. That’s an incredibly powerful thing, and is an amazing gift to be able to give another human being.
Definitely. Uh, you, I think these examples you’ve given, uh, have been very helpful in terms of, uh, client demographics and characteristics. Many people listening may have had - before listening to this - a certain image in their head of “the client.” Who is the client who comes to, who goes to a brothel, or works with escorts, for instance?
Who goes to the Ranch, or works with, uh, sex workers? If you had to broadly paint, I mean there are certain.. Are there certain demographics or psychographics that are particularly prevalent?
The easiest picture that I can paint is somebody who is over the legal age of consent - and with this, I will mention too in that the northern brothels, you have to be 18 years of age; in the southern brothels which are near Vegas, you do have to be 21 of age. Do keep those things in mind; you have to meet the age requirements to enter the brothel, and that’s it. That’s literally the only requirement to be able to come to a brothel.
I see men, I see women, I see individuals who are intersex. I have folks that are trans; I have folks that come to see me with no interest in sex at all, that are completely asexual, and instead they just want have experiences and cuddle with me. I see couples and adult virgins; I see non-verbal individuals who have to communicate using a tablet. I see folks that are in their 70’s, who are mourning the loss of their wife of 50 years. I see everything from adult virgins who are 18 years in age to adult virgins who are 50 years in age. I see men who haven’t had sex in 25 years and I see men who have sex on the frequent, but they have a very specific fetish that they can’t ask their general sex partner to fill for them. It is such an incredible rainbow of people that come to see me for just a huge, huge variety of women.
Unfortunately, our society has this stigma - in a way - when we think of who a brothel client is. We paint this picture of this seedy guy in his 30’s who isn’t really well-kept and probably has tattoos and piercings, and is just a disrespectful, negative character in society. We have all these negative connotations with sex work, sex work clients. But the reality of sex work is, in this country, that when you take a step back and look at the reality, I see everybody from the mailman to people who work in governmental office. The range is absolutely incredible.
What are some other misconceptions about sex work, sex workers, clients, thereof? Any other misconceptions, in particular, that you’d like to speak to?
In regards to the women themselves, there’s this misconception about sex workers that we ended up here because of something. Rather than choosing, we’re reacting to something that happened to us. That could not be further from the truth: the majority of women that come to work at the brothels are incredibly well-educated, come from a variety of different backgrounds all over the country in a whole array of different ages and body types.
To give you an idea, one of my co-workers, Amelia Heart, is just incredible. She has multiple college degrees, she’s a massage therapist, and is truly a brilliant mind. Meeting her for the first time, you wouldn’t realize just how well-educated she is until you get that opportunity to sit down with her and you hear the quality of what she’s saying and you realize this is somebody who could be pursuing a doctorate, if they so chose. But instead, they’ve chosen to go ahead and embrace sex work.
The one commonality that I have found between the women who choose to do sex work and then furthermore choose to do sex work on a long-term basis - be that six months, a year, two years - those ladies all look at sex work as a form of service to the community. It’s sometihng we’re able to do; a genuine need that society has always had that we’re fulfilling. We’re fulfilling a service, just like anybody else; any other legal profession.
We pay our taxes, we have to pass a stringent background check in order to have a license to work at the Ranch, we’re required by law to go ahead and be tested for STIs and STDs every single week. It’s an incredibly professional upscale environment with incredibly high-class women. I wish that more society would understand that sex is truly a societal need, and so long as that need exists, sex work will always be the natural answer.
Well, I think this is an important point, because in the U.S. at least - and elsewhere, certainly - if you look at the war on drugs which has been - by almost any measure - an abysmal failure with all sorts of perverse side effects and costs and ruined lives associated. If you take something that is even more so an innate, uh, human - not just drive, but need - like sex and try to in any way repress it or prevent it completely, which certainly happens in many different areas of the U.S. and different cultures in the U.S.. It will find some type of release valve, whether you want it to or not. The more proactive, intelligent, uh, sort of benevolent way to approach that is to create a structure within which you can explore that or provide that safely with proper regulation and taxes and so on and so forth. I really think this is an important point to underscore for many reasons.
The question I wanted to ask you - and maybe you can certainly provide thoughts on some of the other laides - aside from the service component and helping, say, these vets or, uh, clients who really need this - what else do you get out of it? Why do you do this? It’s not a moral judgment at all; I’m fascinated by it, uh, clearly. But like, what do you personally get out of this that makes you enjoy the work?
For me, what I get out of it is a very honest look at humanity and a very honest connection with other human beings in a deep and meaningful way that society otherwise could not provide for me. I’ve always long maintained that modern America is trapped behind the cellphone, behind the computer screen., where we no longer interact with each other on that face-to-face level. We don’t hug each other; we don’t touch each other. By virtue of my job, I don’t get to just hug and touch the other human beings in my world; I get to interact with them in incredibly deep, meaningful ways: intimately, intellectually. For me, it’s stimulating and it’s enriching in my life. I find that it gives my life value and it gives my life purpose. There’s so much to be learned by just getting to sit down with another human being, let alone getting to enter the bedroom with another human being. It allows me to learn more about myself at the same time.
What have you learned about yourself, would you say, over the last two years?
I’ve learned that I am an incredibly confident woman and that I don’t need to overcompensate for anything. Growing up 4ft-8 and being head and shoulders below my peers, I always felt this internal competitive nature, like I’m not good enough. I have to work a little bit harder; I have to be a little bit better. I have to overcome what - to me - felt like a handicap. When you’re very petite, people look down on you. They treat you like a young child, regardless of the fact that you’re an intelligent young woman. They don’t give you that same level of respect. And so, for me, I learned to have that inner confidence in myself and truly believe it and know that my value and my worth is very, very tangible. It’s very, very real, and it certainly isn’t inhibited by who I physically am; if anything, I’ve come to find my height to be an advantage in my business, which is kind of a great irony, in a way.
[Laughing] Yeah, it’s coming full circle. I was looking at this description, which is: “Striking, with natural red hair. Elfin features, and a startlingly petite 4ft-8 frame.” I mean that sounds to me like a very strong set of differentiators [Laughs] right?
To give you an idea, like, during a lineup, I literally will watch the guys where they’ll make eye contact with each girl. They’ll reach me and you’ll just see their heads look all the way down, because they have to lower their head to make eye contact with me in comparison to the woman standing on my left and my right. It’s very, very funny: you always get to see this funny little head nod when I’m in lineup, and it kind of makes me smile.
[Laughs] Uh, what, what have you learned about, uh, what have you learned about men in the last.. doesn’t have to be two years, but just in this work? What are, are there any particular insights that you can share, or things that you’ve realized about men? I understand that “Men” is a huge category, and that there are many, many, many, many, different types of men with different likes and dislikes and so on. If you were trying to generalize, is there anything in particular that you would say that you’ve learned about men?
I would say the biggest thing that I’ve learned about men is that society misjudges them and places this expectation of toxic masculinity, which prevents men from embracing that emotional and that sexual side of themselves. That’s incredibly limiting society for us to have that kind of moral judgment against 50% of the general population; that’s craziness!
We don’t allow men to express themselves, sexually. We don’t allow men to express themselves, emotionally. When somebody comes to see me at the ranch, all men, regardless of _what _they think that they are coming to the brothel for, the primary reason that they are coming to the brothel is because they want to be heard, they want to be listened to, and most importantly, they want to be understood.
Hmm. What is, what is.. Is there a particular ask or need or fantasy that guys come to you with, and they think that it’s somehow unique to them, but in fact, you see it all the time? Is there anything that comes to mind that would, I suppose, fit that, fit those parameters?
I’d say there are two things that I see that are most unexpected. The first, we’ve kind of already touched on, which are adult male virgins. Many adult male virgins come with this fantasy of losing their virginity and they don’t realize that it’s such a common thing, and they feel very insecure and nervous about it when it’s actually a very common happening. That would probably be the first thing.
The second thing that I see very very frequently is men simply wanna have sex with a woman when she has her eyes open. A lot of women have this interesting habit where we close our eyes when we’re having sex, or we don’t want to make that direct eye contact with our partner. For a lot of men, they find that to be incredibly, incredibly erotic and stimulating to see all the little micro-muscles move and twitch as somebody gets closer and closer to orgasm. Getting to feel their breath and also see the expression change in their eyes and in their face and watch their pupils dilate and contract in response to what you’re physically doing? God, it doesn’t get much hotter than that.
No. Yeah, no. It doesn’t. There’s a site that I wrote about in my second book The 4-Hour Body, where there are actually two chapters - not just one! - two chapters [laughing] dedicated to female orgasm, for those people interested. But, uh, there’s a site - I don’t even know if it’s still around, but it should be - but it’s called Beautiful Agony. Beautiful Agony is, uh, a site dedicated to user-submitted videos of faces as each person is orgasming. So it’s specifically focused on, uh, faces during climax and orgasm. So yes, I agree. That’s, that’s.. That makes perfect sense to me. So men who want to have sex with a woman while she has her eyes open: incredible. Uh..
It seems like such a simple request too, but honestly, it can be kind of difficult as women. You have to be really confident in yourself, sexually, confident in what you’re doing, relaxed enough where you can make eye contact and it not feel forced or uncomfortable. In order for, like, eye contact during sex to actually come off in a way that’s erotic, you’d be surprised, it’s actually more difficult than you would think.
Well just maintaining eye contact, in general, I think - in conversation, for instance, particularly when talking - is difficult for a lot of people. Like anything else, you have to practice; it just requires [laughs] mileage. I mean, you really have to put in the repetitions.
Uh, question for you, uh, I suppose that is, is, somewhat related. You mentioned the “G.F.E.” right? The Girlfriend Experience is the number on requested service that you offered. Now I find this kind of puzzling, in a sense. I’d love to hear your additional thoughts.
The reason I say it’s puzzling is that I know, uh, I mean among, say, Type-A successful males who have traveled a lot around the world, it’s, it’s.. At least in my experience, I mean the vast majority - particularly overseas, but not necessarily - limited to overseas, have had experiences with sex workers. Very, _very, very, very, common. And for many of them, uh, they choose to go to sex workers because they _don’t want to contend with the emotional elements of a relationship or potential attachment or follow-up. They have this sexual need, and they view, uh, visiting sex workers as a very sort of clean and simple way to satisfy that. So why is the girlfriend experience the most requested? I, uh, it’s..
Yeah, yeah. No. It’s, uh, that’s very.. That’s unexpected, for me. Maybe you could speak to that.
Sure, and I’ll even go ahead and speak of a specific example you gave. These men that travel for work, they choose specifically - this is a conscious decision - to not engage in a traditional relationship. Oftentimes, what they will do is they’ll see the same lady on a frequent, reoccurring basis, rather than seeing different ladies. So in a way, they’re kind of entering a unique committed sort of relationship within that bounded time constraint that they are there together with that person. It allows them to be in control of the duration of the intimacy, how that interaction goes, you don’t have to do any of that maintenance and upkeep as a relationship does.
Economically speaking - interestingly enough - it’s cheaper to frequently visit sex workers than actually have a wife and get married.
Oh, that doesn’t surprise me. I mean, I, I [Laughs] remember somebody, heard somebody say it in a movie. They said: “Free sex is the most expensive sex you’ll ever have!” [Laughs]
That’s not wrong; honestly, it is so much easier to just seek out a professional, because if you have that need and you need to get that need met, going to a legal brothel is an amazing solution. One, you know you’re not going to catch anything because we’re literally tested every single week. Two, you don’t have to worry about any of your private information being violated, especially for professional men that may not want to be open or put themselves at risk of doing an illegal activity. Sex in Nevada, at the brothels, is 100% legal. You can go ahead and pay for sex and you don’t have to worry about that legal risk of things. For a lot of men, that’s a huge advantage, too.
Another thing that I oftentimes see with men that fall into that particular situation is they enjoy the familiarity of the same individual girl but they know that they’re not obligated to anything; they don’t have to text, they don’t have to call; they don’t have to say: “Where are you?! Why didn’t you do the laundry?!” You don’t get any of that nagging or any of those negative relation things that can be oftentimes detrimental. Instead, you kind of get to cherry-pick the best parts of a relationship. You get to go out on dates and have dinner, we can rent a helicopter and fly over Lake Tahoe and take photos together. Whatever the scenario happens to be, it gives you the exact experience you want within the constraints of time that you have available to yourself without any sort of commitment or obligation, beyond that.
So I was just gonna say most of what you just said would lead the friends I mentioned before to nod their heads and say: “Yes, exactly.” So the, where do we then find the girlfriend experience, uh, sort of falling in terms of appeal? I’d love to hear your thoughts on that, and I should also say for people listening: I certainly find value in relationships, intimate relationships and sex with, uh girlfriends that I’m in deep, committed relationships with. Nonetheless, I mean, this, this is, I think, another piece - potentially - another piece of the puzzle that’s worth - at a very minimum - understanding. So the G.F.E. - why is that the most requested, right? I mean, I guess in my mind, maybe I’m just a savage, but I’m thinking: “Alright. If I’m gonna pay for four hours, I’ve already established that I’m attracted to you. Why not have sex for four hours?!” [Laughs]
Oh, you certainly can do that! No one is saying that you can’t do that!
No, no, no! [Laughs]
That you don’t have physical stamina. Oh, please; I will turn you-
[Laughing] But, so, please, uh, please speak on the G.F.E. Why is that the most requested, do you think?
Of course. I think the first thing that needs to be discussed is: the girlfriend experience is just that. You are creating an experience for somebody. It’s bounded by the constraints of our time together - it’s not a perpetual relationship, which is what makes it different than, say, a standard girlfriend. It’s an experience. Within that experience, you’re getting a couple of very unique, um, let’s call them features. One of the features of a girlfriend experience is that I specifically take my time to get to know who somebody is on an even greater level, because generally speaking, within a G.F.E. experience, we visit each other more than just once.
This isn’t generally a standalone encounter, but rather a regular occurrence. A couple times a year, if somebody lives locally, perhaps more frequently. Whatever it so may be, I digress a little bit here. It’s kind of important to point out that one of the classic features of girlfriend experience is that more frequently than not, it tends to be a reoccurring experience, and it also allows us to develop a relationship with each other. For men, emotion and sex very very frequently go hand-in-hand: it’s not just a pure physical arousal, but it’s also that mental stimulus. It’s being able to sit and have a quality conversation with the woman you’re about to have sex with. I think that’s incredibly appealing: to sit down with somebody and have them perhaps talk about astrophysics with me, before foreplay? Oh, yeah, bring it on. That is foreplay for my brain right there!
[Laughing] And, uh, what is the, what is the average duration of a Girlfriend Experience session, so to speak?
I’d say, on average, between the 2-4 hour range. Of course, I’ve had experiences more limited than that, and I’ve had experiences more extenuous than that too.
Uh, what, uh - I know this is gonna seem like a left turn, but we’re gonna jump all over the place - what are your feelings, uh, or opinions of porn as a sex worker?
Oooh. _That’s a very interesting question, indeed. I think that porn is ruining America; it’s ruining relationships, and it’s ruining intimacy. What porn does is it creates this almost _addictive compulsion where you’re scrolling through, you’re watching the porn. We’re gonna assume it’s a male watching at this point. He’s masturbating, he’s being very very rough with his genitalia, and he is just going at it for however long it so may be.
First, rather than investing his time and energy in a genuine connection with a real human being, he’s watching the Broadway equivalent of a sex act that is being over-dramatized for his entertainment. So I’ll tell you right now that everything that women do in porn is the exact opposite of what happens in real life.
Secondly, it’s causing men to cause physical harm to themselves: they’re masturbating so roughly that oftentimes they’ll lose sensitivity and it makes it difficult to orgasm and climax with their partner, which of course leads to the almost, uh, cycle of going back and masturbating, ‘cause they’re not able to orgasm with their significant other. They have to have that rough stimulus.
The third thing that it does is it perpetuates this culture where we look at sex and we look at women as objects. There’s no real way to verify, unfortunately, that all of the porn that you’re coming across on these websites is consensual porn. You have no idea how old these women necessarily are, you don’t know if they’ve been compensated for their time. Unless you’ve really done your research and you’ve picked an ethical porn website that does perfect record-keeping based in the United States, there’s no guarantee. And the majority of guys that I know? They just go to some website, they just scroll through and they click on the first thing that looks interesting without a second thought as to what the impact is on the lives of the women! What kind of a societal norm that perpetuates.
If we manage to remove porn from our society, I think you would see men spending more time developing genuine connections with other women. They would be going out more; they would be exploring those dynamics and exploring those things, rather than that self-gratifying behavior, which is also physically damaging.
Probably also be good for business, at the Bunny Ranch, I would imagine [Laughing] if porn were to vanish overnight, I suspect that you guys would be overrun. Um, but-
It would be pandemonium, and the very first thing that I would have to do - believe it or not - is invest in a ton of fleshlights.
The number one - I’m honest!
My friend used to sell those! He was the man behind the fleshlight. Maybe you can describe for people [laughs] what, why, what the fleshlight is and why you would be investing in the fleshlight.
What the fleshlight is, is it an apparatus used for male sexual gratification that is in a tube that looks very much like a flashlight, but rather than having the inner working light component, instead it has an artificial vagina or lips or derriere or breasts made out of silicone or other flesh-like feeling material, which you then insert your penis into for self-gratification.
Got it. So you-
Wow; that was a really technical way to describe it. [Laughs]
That was technical. So you would keep the fast-running, porn-deprived maniacs at bay by sort of hurling fleshlights at them over some type of barricade, like hand grenades, just to make sure that..
.. that you can [laughing] keep this tsunami of sexual agitation at bay. No; that makes sense, I like that.
It’s gonna be like Oprah Winfrey: “And you get a fleshlight! And you get a fleshlight! Everybody gets a fleshlight!!”
Yeah, well, you’d have to take all these guys who spend too much time on laptops and train them on how to catch things, ‘cause you might just end up taking eyes out with fleshlights. But yes.
[Laughing] Jesus! Oh goodness! The reason why I specifically mention fleshlights is: guys are hurting themselves when they’re masturbating. They’re gripping too tightly, they’re pulling too hard. When you’re using the fleshlight, it takes away that ability. It completely takes it out of the equation so you’re still able to get sexual gratification with yourself, but you’re also not hurting yourself and damaging your ability to enjoy sex with a partner. Honestly, I think all guys out there, the number one things that they could do for their own sexual wellness is buy a fleshlight!
[Laughing] “This episode of the Tim Ferriss show is brought to you by the fleshlight!” Okay; that one was free, fleshlight!
Please donate many thousands of dollars to your favorite, uh, benevolent cause. Donorschoose.org - I’m sure - will accept your money, but yeah. You’re welcome, fleshlight!
You know, a fleshlight is not a replacement for a real human being; it certainly isn’t a replacement for the true flesh and blood thing, but it certainly is an alternative option for single men out there who are masturbating at home and are starting to experience some of these sensitivity issues. It’s something to bear in mind because it’s gonna make your sexual experiences so much more intense and so much better.
Yes. For the, uh [laughs] for the real vagina-deficient masses out there who are masturbating themselves into genital destruction, words to the wise. Alright. So let me segue on that to..
Googling your name. Alright, so you have reviews online, and, uh, I’ve seen you described in very, uh, laudable terms. “In one word..” - this is one reviewer: “In one word: wow! In two words: Fuck yeah! In a sentence: drop your pants, ladies and gentlemen, and see her now.” Okay. So.
You have, you have, uh, as it were, very good Yelp reviews. If you were a restaurant, I’d be like: “Damn, I need to go to that restaurant.” So what separates a - let’s just focus on female sex workers - what separates a good female sex worker from a great female sex worker? Right, because you’re sort of the Michael Jordan of your sport. So - and you’re allowed to say communication, but it can’t be your full answer, and if you say communication..
..you have to give me very specific examples of what makes you different..
Has nothing to do with communication, in this particular case.
But I think the big differentiating factor is _passion._That zest for life, that inquisitive nature and desire for more. That lust - overall - for life. Not just necessarily for sex or money, but rather that constant desire and drive for what’s next, what’s more. I’m passionate and I want to learn and I want to explore and experience. I’d say being passionate about what I do really is what separates me, kind of puts head and shoulders above everybody else. I’m an incredibly vocal advocate for sex workers, sex workers’ rights.I’m an incredibly well-educated individual when it comes to sex, sex needs, sex intimacy, and it’s something that I really consider myself to be not just an expert in, but something that I’m truly and genuinely passionate about. It has such a great meaning and impact on my life, personally, that it definitely has left its imprint on the essence of who I am. Because I’ve allowed it to affect me on that deep personal level, I’m also able to give of myself in a very deep, personal way that I think is kind of rare in our society, these days.
So give, give me an example, if you can. Um, because not to really beat the Michael Jordan, um, analogy to death, but it’s like: Michael Jordan clearly had.. actually, I heard an anecdote from one of the mental performance coaches at the Bulls at the time who I think previously had worked with the Lakers on meditative and mindfulness practices, who said that Jordan was perhaps the only player who reflected the skills he was trying to impart to the others.
Okay so you have, say, his ability to generate this being in The Zone, or something like that. But then you have Jordan as a brilliant, uh, technician-tactician, and so on. So the, uh, I will - I’m interested in digging into the passion, but I need some examples. Like, how does that translate to an experience for someone?
Hmm. Trying to think of the best way to verbalize that. I would say the easiest way to kind of encapsulate what you’re talking about is to go back and reference something that I’m very interested in, which is the 48 Laws of Power. It’s a really phenomenal book, really, really interesting.
Yes. Speaks quite a lot about the mental capacities of somebody: how we view and interact with the world around us. There’s a certain level of, uh, mindfulness that that book preaches to be cognizant of your decisions, where you’re making your decisions rather than letting yourself react to what’s happening around you. So I guess one of the things that also makes me different is that level of mindfulness. I always take that extra step; I always do just a little bit more than everybody else would. If it’s somebody’s birthday and they told me that in passing they enjoy chocolate cake, well I’m gonna go ahead and I’m going to bake them a chocolate cake. And then I’m also going to go ahead and get candles for it, and then I’m also going to reference back and find out what sort of interests and hobbies they have, and get them a birthday present and a birthday card.
I always like to take things to that next level, that next intensity. Whether it be from simply doing, say, my website and just blogging casually. Oh, no: I’m very, very careful and very specific in the way I blog. I try to communicate my point and my viewpoint within my words; I really try to emphasize my beliefs and place an importance on that connectivity and that interaction that we get to share. It really is the encapsulating part of the experience for me, is being willing to take the time and the effort to do a little bit more than most.
When most people would stop working, that’s where I keep going. I push just a little bit harder, whether that be through marketing, whether that be through client interaction, whether that be through how I choose to present myself online. All of those things, it’s just a little bit more, a little bit extra. Just really demonstrating that I want to be known for this field. I want to be known for creating these incredible experiences for people. I want people to have those encounters and have those experiences and think about them as a potential for their own life.
So, alright. Let’s talk about, then, something you mentioned is on the bucket list for a lot of men, and that is a threesome. So if you are working with, say, one of your female friends who is also a sex worker, and providing that experience for a man, what are some of the ways that you guys would go above and beyond in that experience? Specifically, like, I’m curious about maybe some of the technical stuff, some of the acts themselves. Uh, things that may not be obvious, or things that may be unexpected. Anything, really, that as that unfolds, what are some of - what’s the secret sauce? What are some of the magic ingredients?
When it comes to a threesome encounter, the_ ultimate_ frosting, cherry on top, whipped cream dessert of it all is honestly a two-girl blowjob, where the two of us are kneeling before a guy who is standing, one positioned on either side of his member. Both of our mouths and our hands on his body, looking up at him and pleasuring him where he truly is the center of our world for that moment. I have had guys rant and rave about that kind of experience moreso than anything else, when it comes to a threesome. Just being able to feel like: “Wow. I am the center of someone’s sexual attention and the center of someone’s sexual universe!” is hot.
Oh, sure. Yeah, no; that’s.. [laughing] I’m not confused or surprised. The related question, I suppose, for people out there who are interested in becoming better at giving blowjobs. RIght, what recommendations would you have for them? Are there any do’s or do not’s, common mistakes, anything that you can suggest to enhance the experience? What are your thoughts? If you were teaching a class - maybe you have taught a class on this, for that matter.
I have, in fact taught this class on how to give a better blowjob; it’s a fun one!
Alright, so what are some of the key teachings?
The first thing you need to do is look at what your general blowjob routine is. Are you doing the same things over and over again, are you focusing on the head or a particular part of the penis? Are you making eye contact? What are you doing right now? Whatever it is you’re doing right now, the next step is to go ahead and add to it. If you’re just giving a standard blowjob focusing on the head, pause for a moment; look up and make really direct eye contact with your partner, and then keep going while keeping that eye contact maintained. It’s gonna change the energy and change the interaction. Then you can take it the next step further and start playing with, perhaps, food.
Have you ever taken whipped cream and put whipped cream on top of your man and then had whipped cream off of his member? That can be an incredibly erotic way to do things, not to mention the fact that in a technical term, by placing a food object, it kind of gives your mouth a taste guide for what part of the body you have and have not paid attention to yet. It really creates this moment where you have to slow down and you have to make sure you clean up all the whipped cream, and it’s a really pleasurable way to slow things down and enjoy the moment and enjoy the action. So it’s about being willing to try new things in your blowjob. And of course, ladies, watch the teeth.
[Laughing] Yes. Watch the teeth; that’d be a good bumper sticker.
Good message to impart. Uh, hand? No hand? If hand involved, just fingers? Full hand? I guess you’re 4’8” so [laughing] maybe you have tiny..
..maybe probably have tiny hands. So I’m not sure. Must make guys feel amazing, they’re like: “Oh my God! Is my cock really huge, or are her hands just really small? I don’t care!” It’s so amazing!
I tend to like to cup the balls.
You cup the balls?
I kind of like to cup them, massage them between my hands - not too roughly - really don’t wanna pull on them or put serious pressure on them, but just having that added sensation there for a lot of guys can actually make their orgasms significantly more intense.
Hmm. So when you say cupping, you’re talking about like one hand is cupping like you’re holding a baby bird or something like that?
Yes. Kind of as if you had two eggs sitting in the center of your hand, and then you’re kind of spinning those two eggs back and forth against each other, kind of sliding them against each other, sliding them against your hand, kind of providing a light tactile stimulation.
Got it. And then what do you do with the other hand, or what might you be doing with the other hand?
A lot of guys, in general, enjoy the sensation of feeling deep inside a woman. And how they tend to perceive this - and a lot of guys, subconsciously when they’re masturbating - whatever hand they’re not using, they’re placing on the crook of their inner thigh, and they’re placing pressure there. What that does for the body is it transmits and translates to the nerves that makes them feel as if they are deep inside of a woman’s body. So sometimes, what I’ll do is I’ll place my other hand that isn’t on their balls: I’ll place it against their body, against their shaft at the very, very base of it and kind of give that pressure sensation as if they are deep inside of a woman. That, combined with the pleasure I’m giving using my mouth and the pleasure I’m giving using my hand, it can really create a mind-blowing orgasm.
Hmm. Thank you for the details! Yeah.
Like, if a guy normally doesn’t finish during a blowjob - a lot of guys find that they’re not able to - by adding those two simple things, it can completely change their mindset on blowjobs and make it one of their favorite ways to finish!
What is, alright.. We’re talking about, I was mentioning, uh, [laughs] five-star Yelp reviews, I don’t know you remember. In the context of a threesome that you’re in charge of, right? You and another woman are kind of running the show. So you already talked about man standing, two women on the floor. If you’re looking at greatest hits, like what gets the most rave reviews for finishing? What is the last, what does the last five minutes look like?
The Big K.O. - so the Big K.O. often looks like the guy on his back, myself on top in doggy style, the other lady is reversed where she’s facing me but sitting on top of his face in such a way that he’s still able to see and her and I are making out, playing with each other’s breasts, and really getting into the encounter. I happen to be bisexual, so I’m already head over heels about everything that’s happening, and most of the ladies that I do two-girl experiences with are also bisexual. So there’s that energy of natural chemistry between the two of us and that attraction, in addition to the focus on his pleasure. He- it’s just so stimulating both visually and then just in regards to how he’s feeling, that a lot of guys cum that way and they cum really, really hard.
[Laughing] The Big K.O.
Its a big K.O. It’s a lot of fun, ‘cause if you’ve never gotten to have sex like that, you are missing out.
That is one of life’s like, life’s eighth wonder is a mind-blowing threesome.
Oh, no, no disagreement there. Agreed, agreed. Uh, yeah, that, that’s unfortunate there aren’t more threesomes in the world , for sure. The Big K.O. Now just to really hone in on the visuals, so you are on top of the man, mounted on the man, facing towards his head. You had mentioned doggy style, but you’re kind of in cowgirl. Not really cowgirl; I guess, is cowgirl only when you have your knees up? But your knees are down. Uh..
Yep; so it’s still considered to be cowgirl. It’s when I’m on top of him, and my body is upright rather than leaned or tipped forward. The other lady is facing me, parallel - so we’re looking at each other, so she’s facing him and she’s sitting on his face in such a way that he’s able to give her oral stimulation. But then, he’s also able to see everything that’s going on. Oftentimes, we’ll use mirrors for this if the angle’s a little bit difficult; a lot of our rooms already have them installed to kind of give that visual emphasis too, not just the physical.
Sounds lovely. Uh, alright.
It’s pretty fun!
I’m gonna, before I just get lost in reverie, back to my interviewing. [Laughing] I wanna talk about the negotiating again, because I’m very interested in this, and I know we touched on it very briefly. What types of points are you negotiating? Are you negotiating price? Are you, uh, I’d love for you to dig into the specifics, like give some examples. What kind of stuff is being agreed upon and settled on in that conversation, beforehand?
During the negotiation, the very first thing that is discussed is what we are doing, where we are doing it, what they desire to get out of that experience, and what kind of a budget they are working with. And at that point, yes, we are definitely negotiating over price. Of course, the more flexible someone’s budget is, the more in-depth of an experience they’re able to have. There definitely is a correlation between those two things. What’s very interesting in our industry is that there is nowhere else that we can talk about price except at the physical location of the brothel in our bedrooms. This isn’t something that can be done in advance online or over a phone; this is something that you have to actually do in person due to how Nevada law is written. There’s no rates posted online on my website; none of that information is anything we discuss. Price is definitely one of the things that we negotiate for. It, of course, varies from person to person, and it’s worth mentioning that the ranch is built very discreetly, so you can feel comfortable using your debit or credit card there, because it is a professional business and not worry about that being a concern!
[Laughing] Well it’s a tax consultation. Carson City, or wherever it might be! What is the descriptor? What shows up on the statement? I’m so curious!
Oh! We actually usually don’t publicize that information.
Oh, okay, alright. That’s fine.
Reason being, is: if it’s on the internet, it’s not anonymous!
Oh! Right! Right right right. I would make thousands of enemies; sorry, sorry!
I didn’t really think that one through; all the [laughing] wives listening would be like immediately looking for all of the things that might show up. Okay, got it, got it, alright. So: Safeway potato chips, uh, ranch. I think that’s, that would, that would be my code. [Laughs] Oh my God, I just said that out loud. Okay, so, uh, alright. Let’s keep going [Laughing] so it’s very discreet.
Oh, no, but it’s definitely discuss price, some clients are very comfortable talking about the intimate details of the sexual experience they want. If a client is interested in roleplay, they may be very specific and say: “I want you to wear a red schoolgirl skirt with a white tight blouse top with your hair in high pigtails.” It could be that specific, or it could be as generic as: “I want to have sex.” If they’re a male virgin and they’re not comfortable talking about sex at that point. And so each person’s negotiation is going to go a little bit differently, but generally speaking I like to cover the - where we want to go, what we want to do, do they have a specific end goal in mind or something that they really want to experience. And then I kind of custom tailor in, explain to them: “Well, based off of what you’ve told me, I think the best encounter for you is going to look like this. Generally speaking, we’ll want to spend, you know, an afternoon together and this is kind of what we’re looking at, price-wise.”
And then we just kinda take it from there; either they’re able to do that and we’re good to go, and this is where it’s a negotiation, because we can go: “Oh, I can’t quite get there. What if we take this activity away, can we still have plenty of time for everything else?”
“We can? Great!”
What if, what if I don’t get the power windows, and I don’t need the fancy rims? [Laughing] Then where do we end up? What is the range, if you’re able to say, on kind of low-end, if we’re going like, lean machine, up to like the works? What, the, the full Cadillac.. Is there, is it possible to give a range on something like that?
Sure thing! Of course, it’s gonna vary from lady to lady, because we’re all independent contractors, but a very very general range or a way to framework it would be: a very brief encounter could be in the three-figure range, something a little bit more in-depth like going out to dinner would be somewhere in the four-figure range. If somebody chooses to spend a night or multiple days with me, then we could certainly approach that five-figure range. There have been gentlemen who have stayed at the ranch who have even spent in the six to seven figure range, because that just happens to be what their working budget is.
Because we see such a wide variety of clients, someone’s disposable income is completely varied. Somebody may be coming in and wanting to spend an entire week with a lady, versus somebody coming in that really is just looking to have a really amazing massage and happy ending. There absolutely is no wrong request, and there certainly isn’t a right request. It’s whatever works for you, for your budget, and just being willing to have a conversation about: “Hey, this is what I kind of had in mind; this is what I’m interested in. What can we make happen?” If someone comes into my room with that attitude, I have no doubt we’ll be able to make something work.
[Laughing] So I’m just listening to some of these numbers. On the high end, is Dennis Hof still the proprietor? Is he still the owner, or is it somebody else?
Yes, he is.
Okay. So Dennis, as my - as I understand it - was a frequent customer who purchased the business in 1993 for $700,000. Then he invested, I think, another half-million in upgrades, and improvements. That means, and I don’t know what the split is between the ladies and the house, so we can get into that or not get into that, but it would seem like with one high roller who comes in, he could’ve recouped his _entire _investment, or at least the two tranches that I mentioned in the business; that’s pretty amazing! I mean, if that is actually the case; I have no idea how the economics work, but it seems like a very self-sustaining, uh, attractive economic model, I guess. I mean particularly, if you have some of these folks flying in from God knows where, and they’re dropping six or seven figures, I mean that’s gotta cover a lot of [laughs] incidentals!
Oh, it absolutely does! Dennis has gone and he has expanded beyond just the Bunny Ranch. As of this moment, he owns seven different brothels; we have, up in the northern half of the state, we have the Moonlite Bunny Ranch, the Love Ranch North, the Kit Kat Ranch, and the Sagebrush Ranch. Down South, near Vegas, we have the Alien Cathouse and Love Ranch South. So just to give you an idea, this is somebody that definitely found his industry, embraced it, ran with it, and has created a tremendous opportunity for the women that work at these locations to kind of build their own business within a business, and a brand within a brand.
So now, you mentioned, like Alien - what was it? Alien Cat Ranch? And uh..
Oh, I was so close. Yeah, Cathouse sound a lot better than Cat Ranch. And, um, are these, are these different genres? Are they different types of food, so to speak? Is it like: “Oh, if you want Italian, go here. If you want Thai food, go here. If you want this, go there.” Or is each - are each of those, uh, sort of buffet, choose your own adventure, there’s everything here? Or do each of them have a particular kind of personality and style?
I think that each location definitely has a unique energy to that location. However, it’s not like all blondes go to the Bunny Ranch and all brunettes go to Love Ranch. At each location, you’re gonna find a variety of women in all ages, shapes, and sizes. And so really, there’s not a wrong place to go. As far as facilities go, we’re able to travel between the different ranches, so if somebody at Kit Kat Ranch is, say, interested in having a threesome with myself and Hannah Foxx who works over at the Kit Kat Ranch, Hannah would be able to come up to the Bunny Ranch and then enjoy myself and the client, or in reverse, I would be able to travel to the Kit Kat ranch and join her and her client. They’re all within about, oh, three minutes of each others, so this is very, very..
Oh, that’s really close.
..close, as far as the Northern houses - which is really fun because when you think about it, it literally is a buffet! There’s 151 flavors and, inevitably, there’s gonna be somebody that is the perfect match for you.
So, I have friends who are, say, travel writers. And - this is going somewhere - and they find it difficult to travel for pleasure, because as soon as they start travelling, their mind clicks into work mode, and they think about the story they could tell, the detail they could write down, and so on. Uh, I suppose what I’m wondering is, uh, after exploring this and pursuing it and dedicating yourself to this as a profession, what are the things that still turn you on the most? Like, what are the things that you’re hoping will get requested? Does that makes any sense? It, like, uh.. In a given week: “Oh God, you know? It would really make my week if somebody asked for this, this, or this.” Is there anything that would fall, would come up in your mind, uh.. in that way?
Believe it or not, I really like working with gentlemen who are a little bit older in age; the reason for this is that they already know how to treat a lady right. They’re oftentimes very familiar with sex, and they’re looking for so much more than just that casual, quickie encounter. They wanna take things to that next level of connection and intimacy. I really find that my guests who are in their 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, and up - they tend to have a certain maturity that I find incredibly, incredibly attractive.
[Laughing] Holy shit! I just turned 40: I’m now an “Older Gentleman!” Oh wow! I’m not sure if.. I guess it sounds like a good thing, I guess! Uh.. [Laughs]
Well, I love to think of it as rather than being older, it’s being experienced, where at a certain point, you develop an appreciation for women, and I think - for men - that sometimes can take a little bit longer, and sometimes doesn’t quite click into place until they reach a certain emotional maturity, where they’re able to look at women as more than just a sex object, but as being these incredibly intelligent and interesting beings. A lot of guys struggle to see women as more than just sex objects for a number of years. Sometimes, it can take a little bit longer for guys to reach that threshold and, honestly, at that certain point too, a lot of those older gentlemen express to me: “Oh, you know, I just don’t feel comfortable having sex with people my own age, because I want somebody who’s younger; I want somebody who’s a little bit more vivacious and energetic.” And maybe they have a little bit of a harder time finishing, so they’re looking for somebody who has the energy and stamina to really work with them and try exciting new things. I really enjoy that interaction.
That, and I’d say adult virgins, as well: really, really fulfilling to me to spend time with those people.
What, uh… What was the experience like, telling your family about your decision to pursue this work? Can you.. What was.. Walk us through that conversation, or that day. What did that look like?
Oh, goodness! Well I definitely could’ve done that a lot better than I did. I decided that, much like a band-aid, I was just going to pull it off and just be like: “I am a sex worker; I am going to work at the Moonlite Bunny Ranch, and no you cannot my mind!” And I pretty much said it about that directly and just very confidently said: “This is where I wanna go, and this the next step for me. And if you want to judge me for that, you can go ahead, but you’re not gonna change my mind.” I had already made my mind at that point and nothing under the sun was going to change it! And it was..
What were you doing at the time? Not to interrupt, but like, what did your parents think you were doing at the time before that announcement?
Well, at that moment, I was actually working as a massage therapist. And I was getting ready to move out of the state for a couple of weeks, just to try the job and make sure I liked it, and so the first piece of news was: “I was leaving for two weeks, and here is why.” And I decided in all of my stubborn wisdom that I was going to inform them of this the day before I was scheduled to travel out to Nevada for the first time. So I definitely should’ve gone ahead and given them a little bit more notice. But at the same time, though, I was going into it with almost this armament around myself, where I’m expecting to overcome objections and I’m expecting to have to explain and go into like this whole presentation about what sex in Nevada is. And the response I got back was pretty much: “Oh! Okay, sweetie; if that’s what you want to do. Are you sure that’s something you wanna do, is it safe? Are you gonna be safe? You are? Okay! You can go do that!.”
Oh! Okay then! That was a much better reaction than I expected!
Did you call a family meeting, or what was the.. Did you go out to the Olive Garden? I mean what was the setting for this, right? Like: “Could you pass the bread sticks, and oh by the way..” I mean, what..
You know, bread sticks and sex work: they pair together beautifully!
Yeah, yeah! So like what was the setting? I mean, how did you tee it up?
Oh, just at home; we were in the living room, I have a younger sibling who isn’t of legal age of consent and so of course they’re not aware of what I do professionally. So I went ahead and specifically pulled my mother aside and had that conversation with her privately in the living room.
And was she watching TV? Were you like: “Hey, let’s just DVR what we’re watching.” Or was she doing a crossword puzzle? I just.. [Laughing] I like the.. I’m trying to visualize it.
I think she was.. She was reading a magazine at the time, she was just hanging out in the armchair, reading the magazine. I sat down next to her and I said: “You know, I wanna tell you something.” She put the magazine down and I just kind of blurted it all out there: “So I’m gonna be a legal sex worker, and I’m gonna go work in Nevada and…” I just, a cascade of information kind of came tumbling out of my mouth, as I’m trying to explain things and my mom’s face is completely unfazed at this point, which - I have to say - bravo to her for that! I definitely didn’t expect her to take the news quite as well as she did, and I was very happily surprised that she was just: “Oh, okay. That’s nice, another crazy adventure that you want to go on. That’s about normal.”
How.. How do you explain that? I mean, did you just.. Was your mom like a freewheeling, free-thinking hippie back in the day? Or I mean, having come from Ireland, I don’t know the full background; is she from Ireland herself?
Yes. She is extremely, extremely on the more conservative side of things, which is one of the reasons why I was expecting some of the objections…
Blowback, yeah. So how did-
… Since coming to the States, she’s kind of adapted a little bit more of the liberal standpoints here. In Ireland, especially in Northern Ireland right now, and especially back then when we lived over there in the country, there was a very negative stigma attached to sex work. I’d kind of done the research as what sex work is like in other countries and other places. One of the things I came across is information about how sex work exists in Ireland, which it does not.
I kind of - again in that way that I tend to overthink things - had this mental impression of what her reaction would be, and the way that she looked at it, she’s like: “Hey, you know what? So long as you’re not racing those damn horses anymore and falling off and breaking your arm, you’re just gonna go have sex in Nevada? Cool!” That’s not bad compared to some of the crazy things that I have done with my life.
[Laughing] That’s a very understanding mother!
Which is kind of interesting! When you think about it, from the sheer safety standpoint, being a jockey was certainly a riskier profession than being a legal sex worker in Nevada. My job is actually incredibly, incredibly safe, both because of how the location is set up, in addition to the legality and laws to protect the ladies.
Mm-hmm. So let’s, uh, let’s uh, shift gears a bit. I’ll ask just a handful of rapid-fire questions that I ask just about everybody, and uh, we’ll just spend a few minutes going through four, five of these, and then, uh, I’ll let you get back to your day. This has been so much fun, I could go for hours and hours and hours, but..
I was gonna say, I am enjoying this so much! I am having a blast.
Yeah, this is fun! No, this is, this is, uh, I’m really glad we were able to connect, and I will, I will have already thanked the [Laughs] person who made the mutual introduction in the intro! But uh, let’s talk about books, because you collect books. Uh, are there any books that you have gifted the most to other people? Are there, are there any books that you have given out more than once as gifts, that come to mind? Or that you would give as gifts?
Definitely; I would say the top three books that I tend to give as gifts. The first one would be a book that’s written by Dennis Hof, called The Art of the Pimp. It literally talks about his journey, how he ended up getting the Bunny Ranch and a lot of the intimate details in relationship to sex in Nevada. For anybody that’s interested in what I do, wanting to learn a little bit more about the industry, that is always the first book I give, as this is kind of your handbook, as it were, to the world of legal sex in Nevada.
The second book that I give out most frequently is to my co-workers. It would be The 48 Laws of Power. A lot of the ladies haven’t had the opportunity or haven’t been exposed to that book, and so I think that it’s a great tool to get into the hands of women and get that positive thinking going, that energy that that book really tends to encapsulate.
And the third book is kind of an interesting one. It’s a book called Memoirs of a Geisha. It speaks as to the life of a woman who ended up being a geisha in Japan during the World War 2 Era, who was kind of purchased from her family and unwillingly brought into this very foreign world that could not be any more different than what her life was like. The reason why I tend to recommend this book for other people is that there’s this incredibly beautiful humanistic element in the way that she describes. The author uses language that is very, very rich and colorful, and it sits you into that time and place where you smell the fish in front of you; you hear the sound of the shamisen that she’s playing. You can really immerse yourself into that world, and kinda get a sense of what things were like at that time.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s a fantastic book, and the author actually wrote the entire book twice. Uh, he wrote it first, was dissatisfied with how it turned out, scrapped it, and started over and wrote it a second time, which is just [Laughs] I mean, speaking as a writer, is unimaginable. I’ve thrown out chapters..
But the entire novel, oh my God! And, uh, yeah. It’s really, it also sheds light on some of the craft and art form related to being a courtesan during that period of that time, and I actually had the opportunity to go to, to spend some time in, I think it was Kyoto in Japan. I spent a lot of time in Japan, and to, uh, to arrange a formal dinner with performances, uh, with a number of friends of mine with two, what they call Geiko. So instead of Geisha, it’s, they would call them Geiko. Same idea, different, uh, dialect, different label, effectively. No sex involved, but came in and played the shamisen and did a number of traditional dance routines, and prepared tea and went through all of these rituals; very beautiful experience. Uh, that, um, that I highly recommend, if people have the opportunity.
So those, those are… that very diverse set of three books. Next question is, a purchase of less than 100 dollars - doesn’t have to be less than 100 dollars - that has most improved your life in the last year, or recent memory? Any purchase that has improved your quality of life, that comes to mind? Could be something that costs 5 dollars, could be something that’s free, actually, or anything sort of in that range?
Hmm. That is a really interesting question. I would have to say, believe it or not, and it seems like such a strange little thing. I like to cook for myself a lot and I tend to eat very clean and healthy, I enjoy a lot of vegetables. The one contraption that I find myself using time and time again is one of those little spaghetti creations, where you insert the squash or zucchini and you kind of twist it and it turns it into a noodle instead. It makes the vegetable really easy to cook, it’s great for meal prep, and given how hectic my workweek is, having that easy to use tool available to me has made my life a lot easier! [Laughs]
So it’s, uh, it’s a vegetable spaghetti maker, effectively. So it’ll push it through some type of press to slice it into these thin strips, is that what it does?
Yes. And then if I had to go slightly above 100 dollars, I would have to say that my cordless Hitachi has been a gift from God!
Okay, the cordless Hitachi Magic Wand, which has more settings. Has a lot more settings..
Yep! And now you’re not limited to just being harnessed by this cord, now you have a lot more freedom of movement with the toy. And having that available within the context of my job has been a ton of fun. We’ve had so many great experiences with it, it’s been fantastic.
[Laughs] Alright, Hitachi.. Same thing I said to the fleshlight, first one’s on me. [Laughs] Call me! We can figure out your official sponsorship. Right, so the Hitachi cordless.. If you were to be given a billboard, uh, you could put anything on the billboard, uh, and metaphorically speaking to get a message out to millions or billions of people, so it could be a few words, could be a single word, could be a paragraph, could be someone else’s quote. What would you put on it, or what might you put on it?
Well the first part of that would be as to where, and I think that I would go ahead and choose to put mine as close to the White House as physically possible, where people in legislature are going to have eyes on this thing as frequently as possible. My best message would be very, very simple: “Sex is a need, not a want. Sex legalization is the future of America.”
I like it. “Sex is a need, not a want.” Yeah.
And legalization, it’s the next logical step. The fact that our country has it in one single state and only within the constraints of specific locations within that constraint is of course, very limiting. It means that you’re required to travel to Nevada in order to legally spend time with a sex worker in the United States, and for a lot of people that’s not feasible. And so having legal options that are run very similar to the Nevada brothel system but in other locations I think is where our country is going to inevitably be going.
Yeah, it’s ridiculous. I mean I.. because if we’re viewing it through the lens of a need, of course sex workers are everywhere, and they just get pushed underground where safety is compromised and there’s no oversight. In the case that it is maintained as illegal in those locations. So it’s going to exist whether regulators choose to ignore it or systematize it and embrace it, in some capacity. They might as well get the tax revenue and decrease the risks for everyone involved. So I agree with you.
It’s often said that prostitution is the oldest profession, and that really is true. I mean, if you look back into history and you go back into ancient Sumer and Mesopotamia and Babylonian society, you have this incredible conceptualization of something called Sacred Sexuality where, by doing sex work, that’s what brought them closer to their deities, at that time: that’s what brought them closer to the Divine. The sex workers - or in this case, they were also priestesses of their particular deity - were incredibly revered. They lived in the temples themselves, they were treated like gold; they were incredibly well-respected for the service they provided to society. When you look back on how the kings of Europe treated their, their um, mistresses, for example, oftentimes gifting them with titles and nobility and land, lavish jewels. Sex workers have always been treated as a treasure, and it’s only in recent societal times that we’ve instead taken this negative connotation and kind of attached that onto sex work.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, no; it’s uh, [Sigh] There’s so many.. there’s so many changes needed in this country, but that’s certainly one of them. Uh, If you were… let’s say you had a chance to educate a class of young minds. So you are given the opportunity to teach a class, say, once per week seminar for a semester for college freshmen or college seniors - it could be even high school - let’s say high school senior or college freshman, let’s just say that. What would you teach, and what would you focus on? It does not have to be sex related, but if, if you had to teach something that you feel you know a lot about that you’d be qualified to teach on in some way, what would you teach? What would the class be?
I think i would give lectures about interpersonal relationships and connectivity as it relates to our society as a whole. Why we should be more cognizant of how we treat our service staff: waitresses, hotel concierges, staff, things of that nature. How we interact with humanity around us as a whole; how do we treat, say, the McDonald’s worker, or the person checking us out at Walmart? How do we interact with our classmates and our colleagues? What about the interpersonal relationship between that student-teacher dynamic?
I think I would wanna really go into talking about the depth and meanings of those different connections and how they can be used to better enrich our lives in society. If we’re able to change that general mindset of the youth and get them to put their cellphone down and sit down and have a meal where they’re talking amongst their peers, that’s going to generate new ideas, that’s going to generate new innovations, that’s what’s going to take us to that next point in our society where all of those things we say we’d like to accomplish within our society will actually be achievable through that unitive mind, that cognitive collection of everyone contributing and interacting and working together and kind of forming this unity and this bond. And sure, you could say that it could be about sex, but really I think that it comes down to that level of connectivity, that level of interpersonal relationship is vital to humankind.
I agree. So now we’re at the tail end of this conversation, uh, of this round one at least. And people can find you online, if they wanted to say hello: @AliceLittle (This is wrong!) on Twitter, then you’re on the Bunny Ranch: Bunnyranch.com/Alice-Little. Uh, where else could people find you online?
Yep! My twitter is actually @TheAliceLittle..
Oh, did I leave out the.. sorry about that! @TheAliceLittle.
No worries! And then I also maintain my own personal website and blog, thealicelittle.com - and you can go on there to see photos of myself, go through my blog and see about the different topics I write about. The website’s also designed to kind of walk you through the different experiences and encounters that are available. And of course, any questions related to sex work, I’m open to! It’s very important that we talk about these things, and it’s very important to embrace that curiosity. So if anyone wants to know anything about what it is I do and the service I provide, I would love to get to know you and I would love to interact with you!
E-mail is the probably the best way to do it, which is AliceLittle@bunnyranch.com
Oh, God. You just did it. Okay, you may have to modify your e-mail management approach! [Laughing] Which is fine; which is fine. You will be getting, uh, I don’t think you’ll have to worry about getting too few e-mail. Uh, so..
[Laughs] Hey, I’m looking forward to it! I am all in.
Alright, you may get the hug of death! [Laughs] This is one of those “Be careful what you ask for!” things. Is there anything else that you would like to suggest to the people listening, or to recommend to them, to ask of them? Is there anything else you’d like to communicate or impart before we wrap up this conversation?
I would say as an overarching message, if there was really one thing that I had to ask of your viewership, it would be to have an honest conversation about sex with someone. It doesn’t have to be your significant other: it could be a friend, it could be a peer, it could be a professor, it could even be me, but let’s talk about sex! Our society as a whole isn’t talking about this, and sex isn’t going away; it’s a natural and normal part of being an adult in society, and it’s something that we should feel more comfortable talking about. So go ahead and try to have that conversation; it might be a little bit uncomfortable at first, but I guarantee if you push yourself and you actually engage in that kind of interaction, you’re gonna grow as a person for it, and really, really benefit from it as a whole.
Good advice. Very, very good advice. And, uh, you know, another tool in the toolkit that I’ll recommend for people is to check out a book called, uh, and I think this applies in many circumstances to things that we are loath to talk about, but, uh.. There’s a book called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach, who’s also been on this podcast, that I think is a useful, perhaps a useful wedge for getting your foot in the door to be open to accept certain things about yourself and then discuss them.
Uh, Alice, this has been so much fun! Thank you so much for taking the time!
Oh, absolutely! I had a blast, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, and everything that you do!
Thank you. Uh, this has been - I feel like this conversation has been a long time coming, since Eleven Minutes found me, ten years ago. And, uh, so much food for thought, and I’m sure I’ll have many, many more questions. Perhaps we’ll do a round two at some point.
I’d love that!
Yeah, I’m sure that there will be many follow-ups [Laughs] and God save your inbox! But, uh..
I was gonna say: “Send me your sex questions, here we go, let’s do this!”
[Laughing] And for everybody listening, as usual you can find links to everything that we have talked about, including the books, the websites, the AliceLittle.com, @TheAliceLittle on Twitter and so on in the show notes, along with the show notes for every other episode at Tim.blog/podcast and as always, and until next time, thank you for listening.